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looking 4 some canna coco nute tips?

jiggabojones

reform first-legalze latr
HC Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2010
Messages
298
'so ive been using canna for a while now and find it very easy to use for the most part. however in flower i notice some leaves dying and some probs that are very hard to diagnose. so since alot of people here have alot of experiance with this product i thought a good idea to see some recipie's and things youve picked up along the way .

so to list some recent probs i chalk up to calcium def . since i wasnt using calmag for the first few runs.

now i am noticing a possible lockout. it seems as though my meter was off . or i noticed when i would mix my pk /13 into the a&b it would turn milky white instantly . i dont tremember this doing it when i first gotton it. so since then leaves have been nitrogen def , cal and potasium along signs of total lockout for a few waters now. i have since stopped using the pk . and am only using the a&b for now while i try to figure this thing out.

as for the shelf life of these nutes i was curious, as the pk is what i use the least of so maybe it has gone bad? its been at least 8 months since opened.

i was also wondering about how many times its possible to reuse the coco? i am on my second use and some third ? any one out there as cheap and as afraid to leave the house with it as me? :no:

anyway any info would be helpfull and simple nute recipies for other products are of interest to me . instead of using the 6 or so bottles i use now i would like to effectively cut it to 3 or so .
 
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sms_sc60

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May 29, 2010
Messages
792
Re: loking 4 some canna coco nute tips?

jiggabojones, checkout Snow Crash, he's the Coco grow guru here and he's very detailed with his posts :rspkt:
 

Snow Crash

New Member
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Feb 18, 2011
Messages
409
Re: loking 4 some canna coco nute tips?

And here I am :)

Thanks sms_sc60


****Warning****
Wall of Text Alert


My thoughts on:
Canna Coco A+B, with Rhizotonic, Cannazym, PK 13/14, and Boost Accelerator​

Canna Coco A is pretty much like any other Micro supplement. While heavy in Nitrogen and Calcium the extra little bit Canna adds is some potassium.

Canna Coco B contains the other side of things. Mostly phosphorus and magnesium, but with a hint of other elements as well.

The problem with these systems alone - especially if your water isn't perfectly balanced with more iron, calcium, sulfates, and magnesium - is that they lack VITAL micro elements that cannabis requires. During vegetative growth you will miss out on the chelated iron.

This is really what the Cal-Mag Plus is doing for your system. If you wanted more Calcium, you could just run more Canna Coco A+B, it is a promised to contain 4.5% of the element after all. For what it is worth, the combination of 1L of A, 1L of B, and 1L of Cal-Mag plus, each about $12.50 in price, will make a HUGE number of gallons of vegetative solution. I'm talking like 200 to 500 gallons of solution (as during the earlier weeks of veg you should be running something in the neighborhood of 3ml A+B, w/ 3ml Cal-Mag plus for a .6ec to .8ec).

Rhizotonic is a good root zone supplement but I don't think it's the magic bullet people make it out to be. The markup on the stuff has to be extreme because EVERYONE is pushing the stuff at $60 to $70 a liter and using it at 10ml to 20ml per gallon!

When it comes to roots in coco the best results I have had is a 40/40 combination of re-used coco and roots organic with some aeration material called "GrowStones" to fill out the rest. I use fabric planters and I also do periodic drenches with Kelp Extracts like liquid Karma, BioWeed, and SeaPlex. This resulted in roots literally exploding out of my fabric planters; something I'd never seen on Rhizotonic...

I think the proper place for Rhizo is during the first two weeks of growth, the seedling stage, before they are transplanted, especially in Canna Coco. Their stuff starts out with a HUGE pre-buffer, so you definitely do not need to be running the A+B until the plants ask for it. Especially if you have the Rhizotonic.

In my garden the focus of Vegetative growth and the first two weeks of flowering is 99% on the root zone. Big thick healthy roots make for big thick healthy stems and those build big thick stinky nugs. It all starts with the roots and that's where I dedicate all my energy early on. If the roots need a little "dry out" to fill out a little I'll do it. I don't care if a leaf gets a little yellow because the result is the roots go searching a little harder for food and moisture and bloom outwards in branches. Then the plant responds by increasing in vigor.

View attachment 33384View attachment 33385

Flowering is when things get really tricky, especially during the first 3 weeks, and especially when the plant has been in the same container for around 4 or 5 weeks. During the stretch and the initiation of flowering I watch my EC like a the illegitimate child of a hawk and an eagle. A Eaglawk! Haweakle... Whatever... I'm on that EC so hard every watering. If I see it more than 20% or 30% over what I adding (like if I'm using 1.5ec and I get a 2.0ec I freak the eff out and start rinsing).

After flushing a few plants at the end of week 2, beginning of week 3, I know now just how critical it is to have a healthy plant at that point for flower formation. I keep my EC low, with lots of runoff, now during that phase. I also cut WAY back on the nitrogen, start running a 2-2-3 or 3-4-5 kind of ratio right from the start of 12/12, and I supplement deficiencies as/if they arise. Once I get through that tough transitional phase and into flower then I pick back up with the EC and start pushing those flowers.

Cannazym at 0-2-1 is CRUCIAL to start adding as soon as possible, at high levels, like 10ml+. It isn't the enzymes you're after either... It's the phosphorus. Phosphorus and Calcium will bind for mobility in the plant and when I'm not running enough P I definite see Ca and Mg issues. ESPECIALLY if I'm running a lot of nitrogen as a result of using the A+B and Cal-Mag Plus at high levels over the course of a few weeks.

I think Cannazym is easy to replace with supplements of a similar concentration but minus the enzymes and cost to use ratio. I have been using Botanicare Hydroplex at 0-10-6 at 1ml to 2ml per gallon during the first few weeks of flowering to supplement the PK requirements during that time.

PK 13/14 is a very simple solution of water and potassium phosphate. They don't list anything else, but we cannot be certain that is all it contains. I would think 1 year is about the shelf life after opening, but I cannot be certain. I have a liter bottle I've used maybe 50ml out of that has to be at least that old... I need to toss it...
,
The proper time to use the stuff is between days 36 and 45 of flowering on a 60 day strain. This is a critical formative period where the plant is still in flowering. Adding the PK during this time stimulates that kind of stacking of flowers and will help the plant stay in flowering stage for a few extra days before switching into swelling and ripening. Since I have the Hydroplex around I just run more of that during this stage, like 6ml/gallon, to get the phosphorus boost I am after.

The Boost Accelerator is actually some really good shit. I've seen studies done versus molasses, and the Accelerator added over 20% dried weight and considerable "bag appeal" to other peoples grows. When I used it (and I will use it again in the future) I found it to be best utilized as a foliar spray. When you consider the cost of the solution it is best to use it as effectively as possible. After each foliar spray I noticed increased flowering vigor and resin/trichome production.

My use on this is something like a weekly usage at a high level, 15ml or so, and the twice weekly foliar feedings. The drench kick starts the flowering production down below, and the foliars keep it going up top.

In conclusion:

I expect the best supplements to add to their system would be something to provide chelated iron, a Phosphorus dominant supplement and a Potassium dominant supplement. The combination and inclusion of each of these supplements requires high level understanding of how each impacts the final nutrient profile, so use with caution.

In my own garden I use:

Cal-Mag plus as the iron supplement. It also is used to alter the Cal-Mag ratio of the A+B from 4.5:1.5 closer to 4:2, and boost nitrogen during veg.

I use Dyna-Gro Pro-Tekt Potassium Silicate to supplement Silicon to the plant so it can build strong fibers. It has been a great addition to the system, especially in place of a pH up. The addition of Silicon has been a huge improvement when it comes to stem size and strength. Very noticeable earlier on when seedlings stand up straight no problem and later on when branches support big heavy nugs.

I use Epsom Salt as a Magnesium supplement, as well as a Carb/Mag supplement like Bud Candy/Sweet/FloraNectar to help balance that element during flowering. The Epsom Salt I only use at about 25ppm or so, not enough to funk the chemistry, but enough to add that extra few ppm of magnesium the plant really needs. The sulfur doesn't hurt so long as you keep it under control.

I use Sea Kelp extracts, BioWeed right now, in replace of Rhizotonic. I also use Liquid Karma to provide that extra little bit of vitamins and humic acid to help keep uptake steady. The combination has worked better for me than Rhizo alone.

I use Hydroplex as a Phosphorus supplement in place of Cannazym and PK 13/14. It goes a long way $ for $.

I use AN Big Bud as a Potassium balancer during flowering and to help build big buds. Stuff works as advertised, I bought the dry stuff and it's lasting me FOREVER at around 100ppm to 200ppm per use. I have tried a vast variety of other potassium supplements. Advanced Nutrients Nirvana is something I'd use again. I'm steering clear of Humboldt nutrients for a while.

The combination of Big Bud, Snow Storm Ultra, Pro-Tekt, Kelp Extracts, and AN Nirvana have all been used in combination in my garden to bring that variety of "intangibles" to the table that will help bring out flavor complexities hydro can lack. I'll probably cut out the SSU in the future (didn't do shit for me) but I like all the other stuff in my own garden.

I use the AN Nirvana like an Organic tea with my extracts for low strength feedings between high strength feedings. This combination of Hydro and Organic in coco has worked MUCH better for me rather than pure hydro all the time, or trying to add organics to the hydro. I'll keep the two pretty separate, during flowering at least. I'll go full strength once or twice, then I'll do a 1/2 strength EC of some organics, get a good amount of runoff to clean out the salts with all the natural humic chelates, and let the plants marinate in that organic tea for a while.

Here's a predictive calculator I have put together specifically for the Canna Coco system for you. I'm working on a Botanicare and Advanced Nutrients predictive calculators as well.

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You will need to use uS/cm (EC * 1000) to get the values. Some parts are in ppm, some are in uS/cm. Pay attention :) Make sure to enter your starting water uS/cm and watch the magic happen as you mix your solution virtually. Everything is in ml per gallon also.

My suggestions for uS/cm go something like this:
400 to 600 early veg
800 to 1000 mid veg
1000 to 1500 late veg
1000 to 1200 stretch
1200 to 1350 flower initiation
1400 to 1600 mid flower
1700 to 2000 PK boost late flower
1400 to 1600 swelling phase
1000 to 1600 ripening phase
Flush

Stay within these ranges (never over 1000ppm) and you will have success with 90% of unfamiliar strains. As we all know, once you get a grow or two under your belt you can tailor the EC levels to perfection for you particular phenotype. These levels are just a very rough guideline I used to good result; individual experience may vary. Also, I alternate those low strength, about 400 to 500ppm, organic feedings between higher strength feedings and I'm always watching that EC to make sure it is within a reasonable deviance from the solution I am using. If I have to, I'll get as much as 1:1 runoff (4L in, 2L out) or more to get that runoff to resemble my solution. I want the media to have the nutrient ratios I am providing and not what has been unused and has built up over time.

Don't underestimate the strength of a quick Epsom Salt and Kelp Extract foliar spray if you start to see the meat of the leaves yellowing midway down the plant. Sometimes it can make all the difference to keep your foliage healthy and help your plant balance out the cation levels as more potassium is introduced and nitrogen levels are cut back.

Botanicare CNS 17 is my next "experiment" (I know... once I finally get something figured out I move on...) and I'm hoping to run much less shit with their 1 parter. No more Cal-Mag Plus. No more Liquid Karma. Keeping the Silicon for sure, and the Hydroplex, but no more Advanced nutrients. I'll keep the BioWeed around for foliar sprays and would like to try out their Sweet Citrus to go with my Kiwi-Lime Sensi Star Mutant Phenotype.

Anyway. Good luck with the Canna. It most definitely is not complete as a stand alone system. I hope my nutrient calculator will help you better understand how adding just 1ml extra of Cal-Mag Plus could be the big difference maker. I hope all this helps!!!
 
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